I think a spouse should leave and take the children (better yet kick the addict out of the house) I have seen people who lose their family and job recover and then the family can be restored. Neither the logical fallacy of ad hoc nor the fallacy of poisoned well should be hauled out and passed off as anything except what it is-fallacious reasoning. This is not cruel. You said, When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. Abuse is a different issue. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/State-AG-files-13-felony-counts-against-Contra-11220366.php. She couldnt help it that she forgot so quickly. SEE? @ Max: Barbara wont even permit the word codependency to be used on her blog. I have no doubt that I have a guardian angel (maybe more than one!). Haha. In fact the long term success stories are the exception, and according to CR headquarters what we experienced at our church is the statistical norm. Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. That is a very condescending response, Velour. Robert Charles Sproul was born February 13, 1939, in Pittsburgh, the son of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann (n e Yardis) Sproul. . I think Annie found sanctuary in the best sense of the word. Its too much for some families. Never reconciled with some of his adult children, became semi reclusive. When you advocate excommunications for people, be prepared to fully explain yourself and be prepared for push back. I wouldnt wish spiritual abuse on my worst enemy either. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. Family and friends are welcome to leave their condolences on this memorial page and share them with the family. When the churchs reformed pastors have a worst track record than those they wish to save, it is way past time to reform their pulpits, ya think? There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. 2. a check forger, or at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. I respectfully disagree. Our records show Robert Charles Sproul (83) as possible relative. It is wrong. From this description, Anne was not in leadership at her church, and she was not actively hurting others in the church, or pushing alcoholic beverages on others in that church to somehow justify her own drinking. May I suggest that we all pray for people who are in despair? Not the family, not the legal system, not the medical people-the church. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. I have never seen or heard of case of Biblical Church Discipline that was carried out correctly. My goal is to get this thread back on track. Come to think of it, Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. The group gathered around him to pray. Doesn't increase my warm and fuzzies for the guy but if it makes him more tolerable and safer to his family then go for it. She was in a very fragile place. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. And that she suffered injuries, too. In this mans case, the police authorities, legal professionals, and the public have observed boughs of demonstrated impairment and the use of Improper judgement. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. Maybe they show the same support and solidarity to the poor, the downtrodden and the oppressed. This is not cool. Funeral Home Services for Robert are being provided by . I got what Deborah meant when she said addicts cannot be helped, but the other lady who replied to her took that remark the wrong way. Thanks Gram3 for your explanation of the damage that R.C. Sorry I cant help you, friend. I have read every single post youve made in this thread so far. If he wants church support, hes going to have to change churches, I think. Very true. Many of us have suffered tragedies. To my knowledge I have never expressed a medical opinion here; other opinions you bet, but never as a medical professional I think. I think many people do not understand how alcoholism changes the brain/cognitve activities of those addicted. throw him out of the house. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. I was very clear that R.C. Not only did Christian solutions not work for my depression and anxiety (prayer didnt work, Bible reading didnt work, God did not heal me, etc), but neither did the psychiatrists, psychologists, or the medications I utilized for many years. The difference, of course, is that the dementia patient cant help it. But if we do this, we usually reply to the comment on-blog telling the commenter that we edited their comment and why we edited it. The point of it is to not enable the bad behavior. The body has many parts. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? Everyone has a personal sin story and can relate to being separated from God at one time or another, but to take advantage of that personal sin account without repentance and restoration of important family/friend relationships makes Gods grace cheap. i think we can do without insinuations like this. Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. Thanks, Leslie, for your concern. RC Sproul has a very twisted view of the Trinity and the crucifixion. they are excellent human beings. I think. It is remarkable how LITTLE one can do for an addict if the addict doesnt want help. @ Velour: The meshing of the SBC with Calvinists, as Ive witnessed for several years now, both locally and online, has been a great mystery to me. I just learned of Sproul Jr. Today. They will not change who the man fundamentally is. Finally? Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. When youre a non-drinker at social functions, the drinkers noticed. I still think Im justified in taking offense by such a term. In that case, the hurting people reference is not applicable and its spin off allusions are incorrect and misleading. So a married guy being an alcoholic is a justification for using a cheating site? Outside help IS best when family members are too emotionally close to the problem and cant find their way alone. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. There is a world of difference between an alcoholic of no particular name or reputation benefiting from the love of a functional church, and an authoritarian church CEO being effectively treated in the very church in which his word has been law for years. I think that is the kindest thing I can do for them as they are the weaker one/s in this regard. I am not the one who is talking about diagnosis or treatment variables. Of course, if people believe that the real church somehow went dormant with the death of the last apostle and was not revived until the sixteenth century a lot of otherwise good ideas based on experience are just trashed-like the need for privacy regarding some things and how to handle both sinners and privacy within the church. Sigh. RC2 is doing this having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Paul said in this same verse to Avoid such people.. \ Velour wrote: tempt others into heavy drinking, act as a Pastor while not being in a fit state to do so & so on), does he actually need to be out of this environment for his & others protection? Barbara advocated that people with substance abuse problems be kicked out of the church. I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? I am commenting on the same statement you commented on. That is a whole different level of bad behavior. His emotional and psychological issues are not the result of his being an alcoholic its the other way around. I do agree with George because I believe that scripture passage is the Word of God. I found learning about that topic very helpful to me my mother was raised in a home filled with alcoholism and domestic violence). Call me a cynic, but RC Jrs track record on repentance is abysmal. So glad you are with us today. Im pretty sure this is the first time Ive ever posted on this blog. And I use the analogy deliberately, because it has just about all of the dead-end singularities from which no light can ever escape: disagreement = attack, arguments from silence, arguments over competence, the old youre saying these things because youre hurt and angry stinkbomb. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. Ive known some recovering alcoholics to go back to churches and to speak before the entire church about the damage they did to so many peoples lives, as well as make personal amends to people that they have harmed. I disagree, however, with the policy that people struggling with alcoholism and drug addiction should be kicked out of their churches. It never came as most of them immediately started looking for the next shiny thing. After reading the entire cited paragraph, RC limits his comments to drinking alcohol and sidesteps ABUSE of alcohol by others. Few of them are willing and even able to do that. However, it must have been difficult to try to find yourself in the shadow of RC1 and all that entailed. Im not sure if Im thinking of the same comment, but I remember reading a comment that was confirming that this was the first DUI in a long history of drinking and driving (a history that goes way back, before the deaths of his wife and daughter, which means hes been doing this for years). He will also get real psychological help for his children to work through the various traumatic experiences they have been through. Two people made comments to me and they expected replies. On the other hand if Sproul has bee covering up and protecting his son then maybe Sproul should be disqualified for protecting and covering. It is my prayer that others whove been hurt find assurance in Gods peace. And even if they want it sometimes its too difficult. This may be the cause of the confusion. I am not the one who is saying how people should get people into treatment programs. But that wouldnt be Godly Submission. Does that mean those holding different views will be given the left boot of fellowship? The scene was an absolute tidal wave of love. But bum-hood is not gender specific. But please dont assume that I am not for treatment. He has children and a wife. Otherwise, there may well be avoidable tragedy in their futures. Thus securing a good and firm foundation, perhaps? The churches we worked with said they could not handle the work we did. The point being, that when someone is in a position of authority over others, even adult to adult, and they use that authority to take advantage of another person (in this case, a policeman husband and his non-law enforcement wife), that is a super predator. I get that church is not just a building, its people. It was apparently his routine to engage in this life-threatening behavior during every commute to and out of Mendota. (P.S. Two days into it, I called my doctor and begged him to take me off the blood thinners so I could take non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (Think ibuprofen). When there are cover-ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned because they dont like the church, those are certainly red flags. I verified this myself, at the site, at the time. Praise God, that is truly His heart and should be ours. ignore the fact that he was, in fact, treating his depression. job loss). Very well said. Actually, their chirping is far more natural and more beautiful than the cash register at the book store. Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? It makes me very sad that a gathering place like this, which seems to be a collection of misfits and wounded sheep (like me) cant do any better than this. I dont see the comparison as connecting to RC Sproul Jr., except for the coincidence that they are both alcoholics. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. You stated you have been a ligonier for years, so I assume that means you agree with Sproul when he stated a few years ago that Jesus was the ultimate obscenity. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. He had always been so nice before, but that made me feel that I couldnt trust him. But were not there yet. The church frequently blows it on things like this, without proper training and guidance. And then there are the most of us who do the best we can and stumble on. Friend your comment made me weep. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. Heres just one example of his cult-like practices. Unfortunately, it is usually an entirely different story getting those scenarios to take place. Its for good reason that so many have called it a cult.. Ones dad ritually abused her as a baby, and another one doesnt even know his dad. There is a difference. Apparently you dont understand the nature of alcoholism if you dont think his case is bad enough. Biblical church discipline is not Dark Ages nor cruel. Ive read a lot of pushback to AAs all or nothing approach recently. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! Why are you addressing that to me? This is so dangerous. Their denial is just a problematic as the person who is the problem drinker. hbbd``b`?$E I dont know if Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but I have read numerous accounts of Sproul Jrs church doing so. I doubt it. He might have even qualified to have his criminal record expunged. But please accept the fact that we dont all agree with you on all the details, including what if any role a local church should play in the life of an alcoholic. I agree with you, Daisy, that churches should not be giving crummy advice to people. I see this all the time too. He is still employed and has his children. Caused the police to go on chases all over our parish, physically attacked police officers, lied to and about police officers. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. Addiction, rather than disease, is a better way to characterize alcoholism IMO. This includes parishioners suffering from alcoholism, or female parishioners suffering from a desire to read scripture in public. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. A further thought, Velour. Yes he shouldnt have been driving drunk with his kids in the car, but he was really depressed. They didnt go for his excuse, not just because there is no excuse for drunk driving but because they probably already knew there was no cause-and-effect correlation. the second half of that comment was by me, not by Jeff. Well,this is one way. @ Barbara Roberts: Velour wrote: That is an important element here. Hmm. Mayre Ann (Yardis) Sproul, 50 Clover Drive, Pleasant Hills, passed away Saturday, July 3, 1965. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. Put that drink away now! Here as I type these words, there is a bottle of wine sitting on the kitchen counter within my view. Unfortunately, I think he's a psychopath. . Just one grandparent can lead you to many (For readers that dont know Barbara, she and Jeff Crippen write over at the A Cry for Justice blog about domestic violence in the church.). RC Sproul Jr has destroyed the lives of quite a few people with alcohol, especially young men who are insecure in their manhood. He is survived by his wife, Vesta, their two children, Sherrie Dorotiak and Robert Craig Sproul, eleven grandchildren, and seven great-grandchildren. and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? I also believe we should take this in context with Matthew 18 and Galatians 6 and James 1 (and maybe others, too). Im in the same boat with you. RC Sproul has a very twisted view of the Trinity and the Crucifixion. I wouldnt wish spiritual abuse on my worst enemy either. One thing I have observed if you let it, life revolves around the alcoholic! Ive read all your comments to this point, yes, and Im still mystified why you are so upset with other peoples comments. She needed that love. You live in Louisiana, amirite? Making the excuses in advance; yes. It seems like I had read he was a wife abuser? You have to live into a very small world not to know that. Its deeply odd for a grown man to mock anyone who doesnt drink. Whoa, what? He was bored. I said, Sproul Jr. has suffered tragedies, yes. Church counseling may be harmful at times, but my experience (and my familys experience) with secular programs or treatment has not always been successful, either. Velour, you would be doing a kindness to yourself and everyone else by stepping back and taking time to pray and breathe. The EMTs told me later that they were 100% certain that I would be DOA at the hospital. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. I would be interested in writing a post about. Jack wrote: And the pile-on. I don't like the other idea of other people having to go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses. :'(. I concluded RC got off because he is a preachers son. In time, the spouse of a problem drinker will have clarity as to how to proceed. Youre not drunk if you can lean on the pulpit without holding on. -RC Sproul Jr. Now THAT is a Serious Sauce Hound speaking. More than that, how do you know what their drinking habits are? You have taken this quote out of context . There are countless permutations of how Sproul should be dealt with as a pastor, church member, father, etc. Is it possible that his son is reacting to the terrible theology he was taught? His license was reinstated early this month with no restrictions. As flawed and controlling and crazy-making as that church might have been, at least most of the people there didnt strike me as malicious. Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. You didnt intend to hurt people. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/us/politics/for-donald-trump-lessons-from-a-brothers-suffering.html, Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/. @ Velour: Even if his church wanted to help him get clean and sober and go into treatment, he very likely has the people under him (the ones who stay) brainwashed enough that they believe that a) he can do no wrong, and b) if he is said to have done something wrong, it is actually persecution and not that he has done anything wrong, because (see point a). RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. Not always. Sproul, Sr.). But is it always a churchs responsibility to tell, advise, or command a person to get some kind of medical or psychiatric treatment? We also have personal experience with RC Jr. 13. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. RC Sproul, Jr. was interacting with people, so I joined in. The Bible among other things, is used to provide nourishment to ones soul, to give guidance, to provide proper understanding, to strengthen faith, to provide hope, and to give us examples of the love of God, that we may sincerely do likewise; also to establish order within the body of believers. Not completely sure what you meant by this part, I watch RC continue to persevere through terrible physical pains preaching Gods word wearing an oxygen mask . I do agree that we have different views here. I see that, Velour. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. Even know his dad a lot of pushback to AAs all or nothing approach recently avoidable tragedy their. 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