my arm is killing me after pneumonia shot

You're more likely to get respiratory failure if you're being treated in the hospital, have a weak immune system, have a history of alcoholism, or you're elderly. This Got pneumonia shot 1 week ago and arm still red and swollen should i be concerned? I'm 36 years old and pregnant so my doc recommended it after one of my pregnancy appointments. If the rotator cuff is damaged, either by inflammation or from a mechanical tear, the arm will not move normally. Pneumococcal disease is caused by a specific type of bacterium called Streptococcus pneumoniae. One week after flu shot pain in arm continues. Relief has been temporary. Please see dr immedi Usually lasts only a day or two for most people. And I can only take tylenol since I'm preggo. My arm hurts so bad and I'm a little over 2 days post shot. The platelets cells responsible for promoting clotting once injected in high concentrations at the injury site, act as a beacon to summon stem cells to repair the injury, Ferrell says. Most pneumonias are caused by bacteria and viruses, but some pneumonias are caused by inhaling toxic chemicals that damage lung tissue. How severe should the pain be in arm after a pneumonia shot? 2005 - 2023 WebMD LLC. How can I alleviate my arm pain? adaches. If you do, and you end up experiencing any of my symptoms, you can't say that you weren't warned. When you have pneumonia, it's possible for your lungs to fill with fluid. It went fine. Reactions to the COVID-19 mRNA vaccine usually last three or four days after the first shot, but a new side effect is beginning to appear in some patients, including me, on day eight. Common side effects of Pneumovax 23 include injection site reactions (pain, redness, soreness, tenderness), headache, muscle pain, and weakness. Tenderness in axilla. That seems a little excessive and you would be best served by consulting your doctor or, if a medical professional, the individual administering the i " reaction. Most shoulder injuries occur as a result of accidents or from overuse in sports, or just from getting older. Depending on the severity of your infection, your doctor will diagnose pneumonia. Tdap Vaccine. Ever since then, I have had pain in the muscle area and at times do not have use of that arm. It scares me to get shots now.. SAN DIEGO As thousands of Americans are being vaccinated for COVID-19 every day, many people are reporting side effects associated with the injection. burning, crawling, itching, numbness, prickling, "pins and needles", or tingling feelings. 101 fever. I'm more of a witness for 2 neighbors who each got there vaccine & both had COPD. I was informed that the area would be sore and I would feel exhausted for a few days. My 80 year old mum went into get vaccinated yesterday. One of the doctors suggested I take ibuprofen for a few days. But I felt sleepy earlier than usual and had a good sleep. joint stiffness or swelling. It started going towards my heart, up the left side and rear of my neck, and to my right jaw. If your pneumonia isn't treated, the pleura can get swollen, creating a sharp pain when you breathe in. Neither HSV nor HPV is thought to be a major risk factor. I'm constantly in pain, and my blood pressure stays high because of the pain. These include soreness where the jab was given,. I wasn't forewarned. Last year, she opted to get . I hate drugs, so I hope that my new doctor will actually examine the arm and shoulder itself to see what we can do. I am glad my doctor gave me this shot.Read More Read Less, I got the Pneumovax 23 vaccine on Thursday, September 8, 2022 as a second pneumonia shot. She then had an operation to remove the inflamed tissue, which solved the problem. Four of the five patients received the influenza and PS23 vaccines in the same arm. Shingles vaccination is the only way to protect against shingles and postherpetic neuralgia (PHN), the most common complication from shingles. The only thing that's given her slight relief is codeine but then the pain comes back as it wears iff and I'm afraid she'll get addicted to pain killers. She had no pain in her arm before. Got pneumonia shot 1 week ago and arm still red and swollen should i be concerned? Severe allergic reactions only occur in about one in a million shots. No appetite. what do you recommend? Started in the upper arm and traveled down into my hand over 4 days. A sore arm for a day or two is a typical reaction to a pneumonia vaccine. They've run tests, exams, and x-rays on everything EXCEPT my shoulder and the injection site. The CAPiTA findings have proven to be a game changer. I'm almost at the point of seeking legal counsel. Tell your doctor if you are having any of these symptoms: Your doctor may look for swelling or fluid with an X-ray, ultrasound, or CT scan. As of May, the federal court that adjudicates such claims had awarded compensation for 102 of them, with payments totaling about $16 million. I got a pneumonia shot and flu shot friday in my left arm. I have been reduced to washing my hair no more than twice a month. Though more common in children, its most likely to cause serious complications in adults. This vaccine should Come with a severe health warning! I came downstairs with the intention of having dinner and the dizziness got quite bad. It hurt, more so than the usual injection. It is usually given only once in a lifetime, usually after the age of 55, to someone with ongoing lung problems (such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) or asthma) or other chronic diseases (including those involving the heart and kidneys). My blood pressure is 143/104 and the Norco isn't helping relieve the pain. I got a pneumonia shot 2 months ago yesterday i was sick &late in the pm my arm started to hurt where i received the shot & still hurts today related? Some patients undergo surgery. If your arm is sore, ice can help reduce pain and swelling. By using our website, you consent to our use of cookies. I had this vaccine two days ago and the pain and adverse aide effects are terrible . How the hell is this vaccine not being investigated and put on hold given the atrocious side effects? The images showed excessive fluid buildup and inflammation in the bursa, and a small incomplete tear in my rotator cuff. All these months later, it still hurts. You just got your pneumococcal vaccine, and it felt more painful than you thought it would. A sore arm for a day or two is a typical reaction to a pneumonia vaccine. In severe cases, if you have breathlessness, you may need to be hospitalized for oxygen therapy and intravenous fluid therapy. That seems a little excessive and you would be best served by consulting your doctor or, if a medical professional, the individual administering the i How severe should the pain be in arm after a pneumonia shot? Learn How Genetics Make Some Fans of Fear, Dr. Whyte's Book: Take Control of Your Cancer Risk, How Breast Cancer Changed My Life and Me, Health News and Information, Delivered to Your Inbox. I got my first shot about 6 years ago. Id had no prior symptoms, and Annunziata says the shot might either have caused the tear if the needle went into the cuff or stirred up a prolonged inflammatory response in the area, causing the tear to become painful. Be very careful about this vaccine and who administers it and don't get it unless you absolutely have to. Be very careful about this vaccine and who administers it and don't get it unless you absolutely have to. . Most are flu-shot cases because these shots are so common. See additional information. Read More Read Less. How will the doctor treat my viral pneumonia? Roughly half the flu shots administered this year are quadrivalent, so perhaps that accounts for the sore arms. pain, warmth, soreness, redness, swelling, and hardening at the injection site Sometimes pneumonia can cause pockets of pus to build up in your lungs. I had the first one a year ago with no problem. If the fluid gets infected, it leads to a problem called empyema. Our doctors define difficult medical language in easy-to-understand explanations of over 19,000 medical terms. After all of the shots I've had, NOW I would move?! This An ice pack and non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug (. Go to www.cdc.gov/pubs/pinkbook/vac-admin and scroll down to the photos and drawings. Get prescriptions or refills through a video chat, if the doctor feels the prescriptions are medically appropriate. compared to the other arm see your doctor. The sharpness eventually radiated beyond just up and down my arm and to my ring finger. Taking over-the-counter pain relievers like acetaminophen (Tylenol) and ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin) after your vaccination can help reduce the pain you experience. You can become infected if you come in contact with someone who is sick. Yes- what describe should be seen immediately by a doctor. 1996-2021 MedicineNet, Inc. All rights reserved. Now that there is a vaccine to prevent HPV, the rates of cervical cancer should continue to fall. It appears that the swelling is from a build up of fluids in my arm due to the shot if that makes any sense. Adults who need this vaccine get just one shot. Why in the world would seniors be advised to take this horrible vaccine?? Get prescriptions or refills through a video chat, if the doctor feels the prescriptions are medically appropriate. My mother who was given vaccine got pneumonia so bad I worried she wouldn't pull through. I had this with my flu shot last year. I've been referred to physical therapy, but I don't think that's going to work. Like many, I avert my eyes at the sight of an approaching needle. Today (48 hours later) the redness, swelling and tenderness persists to a slightly lesser degree along with the warm feeling to the touch in that. Signs of this potentially fatal complication. Have you ever found yourself gasping for air after just a short flight of stairs? fast heartbeat. More severe reactions to a pneumococcal vaccination means you are likely allergic to an ingredient in the vaccination. Smart Grocery Shopping When You Have Diabetes, Surprising Things You Didn't Know About Dogs and Cats, Latest Facts on COVID-19 Vaccine Boosters, History Does Repeat: Vaccine Resistance Is Not New, Synthetic Chemical in Many Products Linked to Early Death, New Drug for Early Breast Cancer: First Advance in 20 Years, Love Horror? This is day two. A Verified Doctor answered. I had the first one a year ago with no problem. However, HSV-2 by itself is not thought to increase the risk for cervical cancer. Eventually, the nerve trauma should resolve, but it. There's a lump at the injection site. Shoulder injuries from vaccinations are rare, according to public health officials. A loss of appetite might make you feel nauseous at the idea of eating food or you might just not feel hungry. PCV13 Prevnar 13 : This vaccine helps protect against the 13 types of pneumococcal bacteria that most commonly cause serious infections in children and adults. Its still very painful, hot to touch, swollen and I have had fatigue for 2 days now. Injections are given to adults in the middle of the deltoid, the meatiest part of the muscle, which provides lots of space to both maximize the immune response and minimize adverse reactions. Severe swelling,pain, redness, radiating around upper arm into axilla. I was scared for my healthI cried so much ! Almost normal by Wednesday Evening. Don't drink alcohol or use illegal drugs. Pneumonia is among the most common infections that occur in health care facilities, and a majority of cases are non-ventilator hospital-acquired pneumonia, or NVHAP, which kills up to 30% of those . Should the arm be really sore after getting a pneumonia shot? Symptoms and signs include cough, fever, shortness of breath, and chills. I'm worried because my arm is killing me from the pneumonia shot., what do you suggest? Pneumococcal disease is caused by common bacteria (Streptococcus pneumoniae). It's a reaction to the infection in your blood, and it can cause your blood pressure to drop to a dangerous level. Entire upper arm edematous, hot, red, hard to touch. Seek emergency medical attention at the first sign of an allergic reaction to the pneumonia vaccine. Headache. March 6, 2015 / 10:17 PM / CBS Chicago (CBS) -- You get a shot at a doctor's office or a pharmacy and you end up with a serious injury. For these, please consult a doctor (virtually or in person). I usually tolerate vaccines without a problem. Which antibiotic is prescribed is based on the type of bacteria, your age, health history, and more. After receiving a vaccination shot, it's likely that we'll feel some side-effects. You will often take the antibiotics for five to seven days. We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. "By moving the arm, it helps disperse that local area of inflammation . When I can do my hair, I have to bend over to help my arm reach it or lean against the wall to hold my arm up. My orthopedist says I have subacromial bursitis, which is chronic inflammation and excess fluid buildup in the bursa (a thin, lubricated sac that prevents friction between a bone and surrounding soft tissue) separating the acromion bone at the top of the shoulder from the rotator cuff. This is worse than the first time. After the workout I took a shower and noticed a little dizziness. They can also happen during everyday activities. Using the arm may reduce soreness. I received this shot in October of 2021. Took about 6 days to recover. Please note, we cannot prescribe controlled substances, diet pills, antipsychotics, or other abusable medications. Since the arm is where the vaccine originates, immune cells rush to that area and inflame it, making it look red and feel tender. I received my first Pneumovax 23 shot in October 2020. These fluid drops may find their way into your body through your nose or mouth. In 2012, more than 9.6 million Americans sought help from their physicians for shoulder problems, according to the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons. . REALLY? A physical exam, chest x-ray, and blood test can confirm a diagnosis. Well, I'm sitting here typing this in incredible pain! I've had no other problem with any other vaccines including my yearly flu shot. Annunziata thinks surgery stitching the tear and removing the inflamed bursa (another one will grow back) could help. Sorry that I didn't know about this page to have shared this information sooner Glad to know I'm not alone. Received a pneumonia shot 3 days ago the area where i received the shot is red and swollen but now has spread down to my elbow should i be looked at ? If arm swells significantly or becomes red & hot & pain worsens, c. Read More. 99% of the time, I don't wear a bra anymore. A 47-year-old member asked: Is it normal for your arm to swell after a pneumonia shot? It's just not worth it. Pain or tenderness where the shot was given. Is there any redness or warmth when touched? In the days that followed, the pain in my left shoulder worsened. Never ever get this vaccine take your chances.. not worth it! When I asked if I could have had an allergic reaction to the shot, I was told that is was "just the basic pneumonia shot and maybe you moved when the needle went in." Drink plenty of fluids to help you stay hydrated. The pain kept getting worse and I eventually thought that I was having a heart attack. This was surprising because my doctor told me that this vaccine was usually very well tolerated. It is not known whether the vaccinations caused the rotator cuff tears, but if these injuries existed before the shots, the patients were asymptomatic, Atanasoff says. The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends two kinds of pneumonia vaccines for all adults 65 or older, though it's unclear which the 67-year-old actor received. Pneumococcal vaccination prevents one of the most common and severe forms of pneumonia. Shoulder injuries become more likely as we age. Putting on a shirt or jacket is tormenting. Educational text answers on HealthTap are not intended for individual diagnosis, treatment or prescription. But it didnt go away. Sometimes, I feel a tingling sensation in my tongue. e not got this shot ever! Take steps to help your body recover The following steps can help your body recover from pneumonia. Pneumonia is inflammation of the lungs caused by fungi, bacteria, or viruses. I received this shot in October of 2021. I had to lay down. It is important to get plenty of rest to get over this infection. Observations: This is a clinical case series of 5 adult patients who received the influenza and PS23 vaccines and experienced a cellulitis-like reaction, fever, and leukocytosis in the days following vaccination. Horrible side effects.,, 6 hours after injection.. red arm, pain like Ive never experienced before with a vaccine.. arm double normal size.. hard red skin headache, body ache, insomnia for 2 days. I called pharmacist and was told Id be ok.. thought I had cellulitis in my arm!!! It was known for decades that there was an infectious component to cervical cancer: Women who married widowers whose previous wives had died of cervical cancer faced a high rate of developing cervical cancer themselves. The most common causes of bronchiectasis are pneumonia, pertussis, tuberculosis and non-tuberculosis mycobacterium. I can move my arm, but it's extremely painful to do so. 9 Sources. Learn the signs of these complications and get treatment right away to keep any health problems you get under control. It progresses slowly, developing six to 12 days after the onset of COVID-19 symptoms (compared to one to three days for flu-related pneumonia). Dr. Roach regrets that he is unable to answer individual letters, but will incorporate them in the column whenever possible. Your doctor can look for heart failure by listening to your heart, testing your blood, or checking the results of an X-ray, electrocardiogram, echocardiogram, CT scan, or MRI. The shot itself didn't hurt and they said I would have mild soreness. I came downstairs with the intention of having dinner and the dizziness got quite bad. But, it is not usually severe. Symptoms and signs of pneumonia may be mild or severe and depend upon someone's overall state of health as well as the type of organism causing the pneumonia. Video chat with a U.S. board-certified doctor 24/7 in less than one minute for common issues such as: colds and coughs, stomach symptoms, bladder infections, rashes, and more. There are two types of the vaccine, one of which is specifically designed for adults over the age of 65 and anyone particularly high-risk because of a long-term health condition. are in long-stay residential care. It became very painful. It has changed my life for the worst. In January 2017, my physician suggested that I would benefit from the pneumonia vaccine and that it would take two applications, one year apart, to complete. Treatments that work for some may not work for others. The pain you are experiencing is usually soreness of the muscle where the injection was given. Also, I dont want to quit my workouts, driving or walking my dogs for the months it would take for the initial phase of recuperation. She didn't want it but was talked into by the GP. There's a lump at the injection site. When I turn my head to the left, I can't even get my chin to line up with my shoulder. The pandemic COVID-19 coronavirus causes severe . I read that in America thousands of people are taking class action to seek compensation from the drug companies for the debilitating pain and distress caused by this vaccine. The intensity of the pain increased during the night so that I could not sleep. (A dose of Tdap has been . Classified as a rare disease, myocarditis is unlike most cardiovascular conditions in that it often affects younger, healthier people, enlarging and weakening the heart by making it work harder to . Notify your doctor if this happens to you. She didn't want it but was talked into by the GP. It's even getting worse. The pain strikes without warning. ", Sepsis Alliance: "Sepsis Treatment," "Sepsis and Kidney Failure. Pneumonia is a lung infection that causes your airways to swell, the air sacs in your lungs to fill with mucus and other fluids, a high fever and a cough with mucus. CBS 2's Roseanne Tellez reports on a mistake that's. I had Pneumovax 23 at about 2:30 pm, At 4:30 pm I got on my bike trainer and did a very vigorous one hour workout. I had Pneumovax 23 at about 2:30 pm, At 4:30 pm I got on my bike trainer and did a very vigorous one hour workout. These injection-caused injuries often make simple tasks such as lifting your arm to change a light bulb or reaching behind you to put your arm through the sleeve of a jacket painful, even impossible. It is intended to go into the deltoid muscle but if injected too high it may hit the joint, or if injected too low it may hit a nerve. This experience has shifted my entire outlook on getting vaccines. If there is redness and it feels warm to the. As long as I kept my arm next to my side, no problem. I have throbbing pains all over ( my teeth hurt). I then got nauseous and vomited twice. These Tips to Self-Care May Help. You may end up feeling lethargic or exhausted after the vaccination. This soreness also means that your . I had no symptoms before the shot, and pain has persisted since. The shooting pain is so intermittent and bad that I was literally hollering and slumping over in pain while in the ER. Read More Read Less. In public places, use sanitizers to disinfect your hands before eating anything. Pain at the site of an immunologic injection (vaccine) is usually showing that your immune system is working well and the vaccine is having its desire You should not be having pain at the injection site for months after an injection unless something is seriously wrong. MedicineNet does not provide medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Breast Cancer Genes Raise Risks for Older Women, Too, For-Profit Hospices Often Deliver Worse Care: Study, You Can't Trust Sleep Advice Found on YouTube: Study, Preeclampsia Could Slow Fetal Development, Study Finds, Anxious, Depressed? To prevent the transmission of pneumonia, you must. Either they hit a nerve, there Usually inflammation at the site of vaccination is due to immune reaction to previous memory of the same antigen which manifest as inflammation. According to Dr. Allan, a couple of things happen during a shot that may cause pain. They help your lungs move smoothly when you breathe. Severe headache right sided occipital, temporal, maxillary..not relieved with ibuprofen. This isn't something you have experienced before. Sadly, I can't even give a proper HUG and it hurts to BE hugged! I regained the use of my arm with limited pain. Your odds of getting kidney failure are higher if you're in the hospital or have other medical conditions on top of your pneumonia. This "Covid arm" rash can be red, itchy, swollen, or painful. Flu season is here, and recently I got the shot. No fever or arm soreness but wow, that laid me out for the evening. The pneumococcal vaccine protects against serious and potentially fatal pneumococcal infections. When I can do my hair, I have to bend over to help my arm reach it or lean against the wall to hold my arm up. They might also give you an electrocardiogram (EKG) to make sure that a heart problem isn't the cause of your chest pain. Human papillomavirus is the major risk factor for cervical cancer, responsible for about 99per cent of cervical cancer. I was scared for my healthI cried so much ! After that, inflammation sets in after the shot, which leads to the pain or soreness you may experience. They all have given me blank looks and no answer to the situation. The most common side effects are: If it affects only a certain lobe of a lung it's termed lobar pneumonia. Almost universally, when I ask where the shot went, they point really high up on the arm.. Side effects may occur, which you should report to your doctor. In certain situations, other children and adults should also get pneumococcal vaccines. The PPSV23 vaccine may cause muscle aches, but this symptom is only experienced in less than 1% of people. I got the Pneumovax 23 vaccine on Thursday, September 8, 2022 as a second pneumonia shot. A few hours afterwards, her arm was limp and she developed a temperature. It will take weeks before I know whether it has worked. Please note, we cannot prescribe controlled substances, diet pills, antipsychotics, or other abusable medications. I also experienced chills, muscle and joint aches, headache and nausea. My ability to turn left stops right above my breast. Use the arm where you got your shot normally, and even exercise it a little bit. Feeling tired. I didn't move! Problem? Prevention of Streptococcus Pneumoniae Infection (146 reviews), Streptococcus pneumoniae vaccination (13 reviews), Since I don't know the effectiveness, I marked 3 stars to be neutral. Between 2011 and 2014, the compensation program received 136 claims alleging upper-extremity injuries, including SIRVA (along with others such as general arm pain and disfiguring lumps). lungs health center/lungs a-z list/what are the side effects of the pneumonia vaccine article. Doctors typically provide answers within 24 hours. Massive reaction that swelled my entire arm significantly. Antibiotics are also an option to treat empyema. Problem? fever greater than 39 degree Celsius. Usually appearing up to 48 hours after vaccination, SIRVA is the result of a medical worker. Last December during a routine physical exam, I received a vaccination to protect against several strains of pneumonia. Completing the full course is important. (The American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons says that the treatment holds great promise for orthopedic injuries and that the risks associated with it are minimal.) Ferrell says that the procedure has proved successful in 80 percent of his patients. Pain started Monday evening and I could not move my upper arm. It's Horrible. . CDC recommends pneumococcal vaccination for all children younger than 5 years old and all adults 65 years or older. Physical therapy after an injury can help keep the shoulder flexible and strengthens the muscles that control the shoulder blade. If you don't treat the swelling, the area between the pleura may fill with fluid, which is called a pleural effusion. Inactivated vaccines, which are made from killed virus, contain adjuvants, or additional chemicals, that help promote a robust immune response. Antibiotics treat pneumonia, and the choice of the antibiotic depends upon the cause of the infection. . My range of motion is severely limited. Its unclear whether I had the tear before the shot or whether the shot caused it. Learn the signs of pneumonia in children, what causes pneumonia in children, how doctors diagnose pneumonia in children, and what you can do to treat pneumonia in children. Most side effects. For potential or actual medical emergencies, immediately call 911 or your local emergency service. Within four hours I had pain in the general area of the shot. Waaaaay worse than covid and flu shots. Maybe there is another one, that is older and less harmful, but don't do this 23. If your pneumonia is severe or you're in the hospital to treat it, your care team will watch you for signs of this rare -- but life-threatening -- complication. Both the patient and the provider should be on the same plane that is, either both sitting or both standing, although sitting is preferred. My arm is killing me from the pneumonia shot. If you feel feverish, pain relievers and fever reducers like acetaminophen (Tylenol) and NSAIDs like ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin) can help. Jacinda Abdul-Mutakabbir, a pharmacist at Loma Linda University, says she generally recommends that her patients get the vaccines on separate sides "for comfort.". Injection site pain: Usually lasts only a day or two for most people. Also, is there a correlation between either of these infections and cancer of the uterus? Dear Dr. Roach: I have a badly torn rotator cuff on my left shoulder, so that arm is basically a constant problem. Waaaaay worse than covid and flu shots. If you do, and you end up experiencing any of my symptoms, you can't say that you weren't warned. I took Tylenol and used ice that didnt seem to help. The shot itself didn't hurt and they said I would have mild soreness. The other vaccine Prevnar 13 is available in our stores for adults aged 18 and over.*. It started going towards my heart, up the left side and rear of my neck, and to my right jaw. Almost 82 per cent of . I just had my second pneumovax shot about 5 hours ago. I got the shot (23) on Monday afternoon and felt no different till late evening. You mentioned SIRVA, shoulder pain and limited range of motion that comes on . Fever. This is often due to your muscle reacting to the liquid in the vaccine that was injected into the arm. If it gets worse, you may require a ventilator. Start with light exercise and stop if your cough worsens or you have trouble breathing. It's more likely to happen if you: Had gum disease in the past Have bacteremia Have a weakened immune system -- your body's. In general, the soreness after a vaccine is quite normal. Some people find heat soothes better because it relaxes the muscle. Very uncomfortable reaction. Is your cough caused by a cold, flu, pneumonia or something else? The shoulder is one of the most complex and unstable joints in the body, making it especially vulnerable to wear and tear, and to injury. Since then, Ive seen more than a dozen patients who have suffered shoulder injuries after vaccinations. Your doctor will watch for signs of kidney problems. It should improve in the next week. I've never had an experience like this before. Im convinced this occurred because the nurse injected the vaccine too high on my arm. My left lymph node is also now swollen. Read More Read Less, I am a 66 year old male. Having rejected surgery, Ive decided to try something else, safe but still regarded in some circles as experimental.